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WEBReeF Fantasy Roundtable
On February 3rd at 8PM EST, WEBReeF held a Webcomics Fantasy RoundTable. Below is a transcript of the chat. Some content has been re-arranged or removed for readability, but the majority of it remains unchanged.
OUR CENTRAL PANELISTS: (List does not include names of other participants)
Kambrea: I am Kambrea and Kneon is my husband. We are the creative team behind Shadowbinders. Kneon draws, I write and we both work on story and colors.
Savannah: Hello everyone! My name is Savannah and I am the writer and producer of a high-fantasy comic titled Amya. Our story can be found in both print and web format at AmyaChronicles.com. The tale follows the adventures of a mute spell-caster as she if faced with an epic quest.
RobinofLeyLines: I’m Robin, writer and artist for the webcomic LeyLines. It’s a fantasy/adventure about three siblings unraveling the mystery behind their mother’s death. You can find the story at LeyLinesComic.com.
Mithandir: I am mithandir. My wife and I have been making the webcomic Chasing the Sunset at FantasyComic.com for the past 9 years or so. She draws, I do story and most of the coloring and shading.
CCrogers3d: I’m CC, and I make “Rune: a Tale of Wizards and Kings” at Rune.RiverFiction.com. I’ve been at it for two years and plan to finish it by the end of this year.
Eren: I’m the artist and co-writer for Tamuran at TamuranComic.com, and Chezhnian (who isn’t here yet, but says “Hi” in the meantime) is the main writer. The story started out as a gchat-based roleplay dungeon-mastered by Chezh, and it kind of grew from there. She does the main plotting, I write a few of the characters and do most of the ‘movie-directing’ for the comic version, and we collaborate on editing. The story is about a young king and his quest to save his kingdom from a country of sorcerers who’ve spent the last 900 years plotting revenge.
J Gray: My name is J Gray. I’m the writer and creator of Mysteries of the Arcana, a tarot themed fantasy webcomic.
T III: I’m Davy, artist and writer for “Fera: A tale of monsters. A tale of beasts.” The story of a group of friends who set out on an epic journey of love, loss and adventure, across their world and beyond. Fera has been running since January 2009. I’m also currently working on a new title called “The Editors” which is about capes and their puppet masters.
Cebronix I am Joe Cook, creator of Shattered Myth.
Traditional comedic webcomics have adhered to the newspaper strip format, but is that best for long-form stories?
Mithandir CtS is fantasy/humour, and sometimes it’s challenging to get either the story to work in the episodal format or to get a joke in every strip. I do think that most updates/episodes/whatever should try to sort of stand on itself, though, so that readers aren’t left stuck in mid-sentence as it were.
Kneon: Hmm. The challenges posed by a seasonal format is maintaining reader interest. With a comedic strip, it’s not necessary to follow everything that came before. As such, we try to end every one of our pages with a cliffhanger or a joke…Something to bring people back for the next update. The biggest disadvantage to more sporadic updates are the increased risk of readership loss.
RobinofLeyLines: I think the reason a regular schedule is treated as typical is because it helps form a community. The more often people engage on a website, the more they feel a part of some larger group.
Eren: With Tamuran, we’re pretty much writing it as though we’re writing a manga serial, working a chapter at a time and just posting the pages one by one. It’s pretty literally a graphic novel. When I lay out pages, I do try to keep in mind how well each page will translate as a standalone update, but that comes second to telling the actual story.
Cebronix: The strip format is great for hitting deadlines allowing you to get multiple updates out every week. But it is a huge challenge to tell a long form story that way. As kneont said, end every update with a gag or a cliffhanger and readers will want to come back.
Robinofleylines: Personally, I’m not sure how well an irregular, or seasonal, release schedule would work. UNLESS the creator wished purely to express themselves and was NOT concerned with gathering a following.
Savannah: I personally feel the traditional newspaper strip format is not suited to longform comics. With a longform comic you want to build upon the suspense with each page, but there is no guarantee there will be a plot hook or pun by the last panel. Because the story progresses at a draw-out rate, you want to make sure each page is as interesting as possible, which also means the page layout.
Kneon Well, we recently switched our format from widescreen to a more traditional page layout. Readers seem to prefer it. it’s familiar.
Jgray I’ve done some study on the history of comics. Ongoing, dramatic stories CAN be told in newspaper format. Prince Valiant, Flash Gordon, Brenda Starr, Modesty Blaise, the Invisible Scarlett O’Neill. All newspaper format comic strips.
T III It’s hard to judge since there are so few story comics that do adhere to the newspaper strip format. Most tend toward the graphic novel or Marvel/DC formats. Using the strip format for a long form story is a double edged sword. On one hand, you can perhaps update daily, still producing a single page per week but splitting it over 5 days. But, it also removes context by splitting up a single page in such a way. And as a result the story may end up progressing more slowly despite the more frequent updates.
Jgray While I know some people have experimented with the infinite canvas and various formats – T Campbell’s run on FANS comes to mind – webcomics generally break down into either newspaper format or comic book format. Strip or page. For ongoing stories with action, there’s a need for the flexibility that a page can give. You can more easily reorder the number and layout of panels to meet your need for that particular page. On modern computers, where the screen is wider than it is long, some of us should probably learn to take advantage of pages that are wider than they are long. But the truth is, most of us, I think, want to also publish hard copy trades and the print industry is so geared towards the traditional novel/graphic novel format that going for a more unique page shape and size is prohibitive.
To what degree should we allow the limitations of print impact our work on the web?
Mithandir: I think that’s a matter of personal preference. For CtS we have a rather rigid format, but we got little extras you can only do on teh web, like giving people a magnifier to look behind text bubbles and hiding things in the margins.
CCrogers3d Have to admit, even though I’m a big fan of digital publishing, I want to hold a copy of my book, LOL. Yay for POD!
T III: I agree, CC, I read plenty of webcomics but I do prefer to have a physical book in my hands. And I think most of us want to hold our own books, or to see them on a shelf in a comic book shop. In some ways it’s simply us being sentimental but it’s certainly a major driving force for wanting to format things as they would be in print.
T III We always seem to come to this point of trying to break away from the print formats, and embrace the possibilities that the web allows. Some have produced interesting experiments, but the danger seems to be in going too far in that direction that readers become frustrated. For instance, there is one story based comic that I read some time ago where the creators made the entire story interactive. Where you would have to click on a random object in the scene to advance. It was nicely done but quickly became bothersome.
Eren: I’d say it’s more a matter of personal preference than anything. I LIKE print books, so formatting for print was always one of the things I’ve kept in mind when designing the format for our comic.
Jgray: The tablet may change things. As people get used to using that as a media reading device, they’ll be able to easily switch from vertical to horizontal orientation easily. That’ll open up options.
Savannah: In the case of Amya; all of our pages are made for print. Which was important to us, as we transition each chapter to print upon its completion. I think our style works rather well with the format, however. So we don’t have any drawbacks from limiting ourselves in that manner.
Mithandir: I think a difference is also maybe WHAT print comics one is used to. I’m from a European background and thus our page layout is very different from what people used to American comics use. Note that cts is laid out in a wide format, but putting two on top of each other creates a tall format. This is often done in European comics.
Kneon: We did the 4 tier layout for early Shadowbinders. We used to work on Disney comics and were used to working with “half pages.” It was just an extra step to print a traditional sized book.
Savannah: We are also looking at transitioning to an interactive e-book format, which the traditional print layout also accommodates very well.
Cebronix: When I did my books, I had to use the widest possible format (8.25″x8.25″) just to keep the text large enough to read in print. It’s a limitation for sure.
Kneon: Even tablet screen sizes are proportionate to a printed page. Being different for the sake of being different might actually confuse readers.
JGray With tablets, I can more easily see a fantasy webcomic done in a format similar to those used by Sunday comics. Six to eight panels laid out landscape.
Robinofleylines: For myself, I want to be able to run this both as a form of expression AND a business. If I have no merchandise, I have no business. So I adhere to standards that are cheap to create because they are known, with existing equipment to produce them.
Eren: Print-friendly format comes with some limitations, sure, but those can be encouragement to get creative within the imposed confines, too. Trying to convey lighting and mood in black and white, for example.
JGray: Eren is right, though. Limitations are good things. They force you to think and be creative.
What about webdesign? There have been a lot of complaints that the ComicPress model is becoming too “cookie cutter”, but it’s used for a reason. Is it a good fit for long-form?
Mithandir: I wrote my own CMS, so I’m completely free to do what I want. I’m not too fond of what I’ve seen of ComicPress, but I don’t know it well enough to comment.
Kneon:ComicPress has become the defacto standard. It works. Again… why reinvent the wheel? You need a solid way to turn a static page and update easily.
Savannah: I have been working with Comicpress since 2009; it is easy to adjust the layouts to your needs. As long as you know how to code, you can really adapt it to work with any comic format.
Kneon: I’d agree with that — a canvas is square, but can be filled in unlimited ways.
Cebronix Personally, I love ComicPress. It’s easy to customize if you really want to avoid the cookie cutter look, it can be done.
Kneon: I think the content is what creators need to worry about.
CCrogers3d: I like ComicPress, but my site is pretty simple. One thing I wish everyone would enable is clicking the page to go to the next page. Makes it so much easier to read in an iPhone!
T III: I use Comicpress, it’s simple enough to adjust and change things in order to give your site a unique layout/appearance. As a software engineer I should probably code my own CMS at some point (because it is mildly embarrassing that I haven’t already done this). But it’s functional and it hasn’t given me any trouble.
Eren: I’m not very knowledgeable when it comes to webdesign and the options that are out there, but if by ‘ComicPress’ you mean the standard ‘comic page with update post attached, menu and navigation buttons below the comic,’ I’d say that cookie-cutter can be good when it comes to ease of reading. Deviating from the standard layout can work, but you have to make SURE readers know right away what they’re looking at.
What about the idea of putting the comic behind a “Click here for the latest comic” wall? To create a landing pad for new readers that’s safe from spoilers.
JGray: I dislike it unless there’s NC-17 material. The more barriers between the product and the reader, the less interested people are, in my opinion.
Mithandir: As a reader, when a comic does that, chances are about 3 to 4 I won’t click through
Kneon: I hate that, personally. It’s a way to get an extra page view, but every extra click you require of a reader is another chance for them to jump ship. Some sites you can’t even find the comic.
Eren: I think it’s a good idea at least for long-form story comics… some readers like the wall, some don’t care for it, but at least that way you’re giving the ones who don’t want spoilers the OPTION of not getting spoiled. Again, so long as everything on the landing page is 100% clear, easy to navigate, and inviting..
T III: The usual argument is that a landing page makes readers have to click again to access the comic, and apparently some may be put off by this extra effort. I’m not convinced that this is 100% true.
JGray Looking for Group does it, but only after they had a dedicated reader-base. Penny Arcade more or less does it but they are in SUCH a different class from the rest of us they don’t count.
T III I know that LFG has a landing page, and I think it’s one of the few that does a landing page properly. They have the link and sneak preview of the newest page above the fold. With options of first etc. Penny Arcade, can get away with a lot because of who they are.
Kneon: It makes as much sense as flipping thru TV channels and if a show has already started, getting a message that you have to start at the beginning. I left Phoenix Requiem the first time I found the comic because I.. well… couldn’t find the comic immediately. If done well, it could be a tool. But I find clickwalls irritating. Just my opinion, of course.
Robinofleylines I recently picked up a book on Web Design called “Don’t Make Me Think” which highlighted WHY I am against a click wall — It forces the reader to think when they visit your site. It can be frustrating for them to deviate from a familiar, conventional format. Convention exists for a reason. It works. The only person I’ve seen use a Click-Wall well is Delilah Dirk because it is SIMPLE and CLEAR. Most landing pages aren’t. DD has a batch-update system, where they post multiple pages at once, and link on the home page to the start of the most recent batch.
Savannah: I love that book; and there is a lot of truth to it. I actually did a test in 2010 mapping the activity of my readers. They explored more content without the “Intro” Page. Readers are not there to read your blog first – they’re there to see what you have to offer them.
What was the most important thing you did BEFORE you started posting your comic, and why?
Robinofleylines For me, it was get a solid idea of 1) The World and 2) The story ending. AND to build a buffer. That buffer has saved my bacon so many times it’s ridiculous.
Mithandir: Most important thing I did before starting comic was falling in love. I make the comic with my wife after all. Actually, I guess our first thoughts about a comic were from before I even knew she was a woman, hmm ….
Kneon: Kam and I had the whole basic story of Shadowbinders planned out… the over-arching story, not all the details. We have a definite roadmap, so we have a goal — get to the finish line.
JGray: The most important thing? I spent years working on the concept on and off. But I think the most important thing I did, webcomic wise, was pay attention. See how other webcomics were built. How they functioned. I talked to people and tried to learn about the business.
Eren: The most important thing we did before posting the comic… probably knowing where we were going. Working ahead gives you a LOT of leeway to play with, space to get to know your own work habits and strengths and weaknesses, and time to go back and fix things up before they go on-camera. Plus it’s fun to get excited about where your story is going… the ‘wow, I can’t wait to show the readers this scene!’
Savannah: The most important thing I did before I started posting my comic? Found the confidence to take those first steps towards developing what would ultimately be the foundation of Amya. Planning of the designs for characters, world… ect.
T III: The most important thing: make sure you have fully fleshed out characters, you’ve ironed out all of the flaws in the designs, mapped out your first main plot and the setting as fully as humanly possible. Also – just as a thing for any comic work – research, research, research. In particular, if you’re planning on having the comic in print, find out about your potential printers page layouts – most have a template and it’s invaluable and will save hassle later.
From someone who’s working on a script right now, how strict were your scripts and how much did you script? Or are you more of the ‘write the script as I draw’ types?
JGray Since I don’t draw, my scripts are always done in advance. I lay them out, panel by panel, line by line. The artist has flexibility but I give a clear vision of each page.
Mithandir I script at most four updates in advance. I don’t do the drawing myself, and often my wife will change the story by the way she interprets and draws the script. It makes it more something we cocreate.
Robinofleylines: Every creator I know has a different script method. I know the end of my story and the key points in it, but in past projects when I tried to write out the whole thing it killed any passion I had. Now I only script one scene at a time, usually only 3-4 pages at a time.
Eren: Our first-draft scripts are roleplay chatlogs, and we had a good length of them built up before we tried making them into a comic. Which was really nice, since then we had an overarching view of the story, what scenes were necessary and which weren’t, or would fit better in a different place, that sort of thing. The actual dialogue, though, gets tweaked right up until I post the page.
Robinofleylines: However, I know that the creator of SkyFall does chapters of scripting at a time. I know several other creators that work that way too. It’s important to find what works for YOU.
T III: I tend to produce my scripts in advance – I always make sure I have the overall plot written out, then divided into pages. There are occasions where I’ll tweak panels, layouts and dialogue whilst drawing the page. That only happens on occasions where I realize that it works better visually with the changes.
Eren Our script (rough draft chat logs) is about 3.5 years in the writing. what we’ve actually scripted out to put in the comic is about the first 2 weeks to a month of those logs.
Cebronix I know where each chapter has to end up. Everything in between gets made up on the fly. Wingin’ it.
Savannah: Andrew and I have the full story of Amya written out in Novel format; I convert about 15 pages a month to comic script format.
Kneon: Kam writes one or two chapters ahead, but we sometimes change things on the fly as we thumbnail the pages out. We’re also lucky if we have a buffer of a day or two, so it’s very much a “live” comic.
JGray: One of the advantages of the slow pace of webcomics is you can take your time. See how the audience reacts, page by page. Change things if they react too poorly. Alter things if they react positively. Not bow to their whims but satisfy their hunger some.
Kneon: Yeah, we did that. We had a negative review early on and the reviewers said our protagonist was a “Mary Sue” and that the comic would be better without her. So we experimented and left her out of a chapter entirely (she was supposed to appear at the end.) Readers FREAKED.
Eren: And also see how they’re interpreting the story… not change the story for them, but maybe change the way you’re presenting it, if they’re picking up on the hints and clues you’re dropping, or if they seem to be missing them completely, or taking them in a different direction.
Kneon: The internet is a live medium… you have to allow for some flexibility, I believe. Hop in the car, gas it up… but make sure you have your GPS.
Robinofleylines I’ve never changed the story for the audience, but I HAVE included more tidbits about subjects people show interest in. The amount of face-time certain characters get has definitely been impacted by reader response. Their actions, however, have not.
What helps you stay passionate about the project?
Savannah: What keeps us passionate? Being in love with our story, our world, and our team. Andrew, Rebecca, and I are all dedicated to the project, and feed off each other’s joy and passion.
T III: When I’m working on solo projects, my scripts are rather loose, they’ll include events that happen on a given page and a quick thumbnail sketch. Some events that I’ve had planned for a long time, my personal scripts are more akin to notes. They don’t really need to make sense to other people so long as I know what I mean.
Robinofleylines: The need to tell a story definitely keeps me going. I’ve also found that connecting with other artists and forming friendships with fellow creators helps keep me up when the self-doubt kicks in. Being part of a community has been a huge benefit. I didn’t have any connections with my first project, and it makes for some very lonely webcomicking. It doesn’t have to be!
Savannah: I think interacting with our readers and hearing their enthusiasm over where the story is going is also an important motivator. I can’t express how important forming a relationship with your readers is.
JGray: Oh, yes. I always feel depressed when people don’t comment on a page.
Mithandir: I live for comments. Luckily despite our relative low reader count each updates gets 10-20 at least.
Kneon: Same here. You see people are reading your material, but you don’t know how they feel until the comments roll in. And when they don’t, you sometimes wonder if you struck out.
JGray: Always be ready to be surprised. I’ve dropped stuff I was SURE would get a reaction and there was little.
T III Speaking of things that don’t get a reaction: having a sign that reads “Lesbian Cat girls” at conventions, gets snickering and people herding their children away from your table. “Do you have enough cat girls and clockwork angels in your life?” works a treat.
Kneon: Some readers become friends. True story: We had people come up to us at Anime USA telling us how much they liked our comic, but they’ve never left a single comment. It’s strange — you never know just how many people you’re reaching.
T III: One of my favourite reader moments with Fera was at the start of issue #2. I’d been lamenting the fact that my readers were a rather quiet bunch, and on this particular page it was a full page of one of the lead characters unconscious and possibly mortally wounded. Readers started getting worried in case I was killing off the character, and were quite vocal about it! Online, I have a small number of readers who comment or contact me a bit, it’d be nice to hear from more though. At events though, I’ve had readers show up who have read Fera since I started and it’s always a strange experience when people fanboy/fangirl over the comic. Several people follow me to every event I attend, and one reader attended their first convention just to see me and Tab Kimpton.
Mithandir: With CtS we’ve had a couple of cases where we’ve made our readers cry. I’m never sure how to feel about that.
T III: If they cry, you’re doing your job properly. It means they are invested in your story and characters.
Anybody have tips on forming relationships with readers?
Mithandir: I find having a commenting system rather than a forum helps. Responding to their comments works too. I have a lot of fun hiding little Easter eggs in the comic for readers to find and react to.
JGray: Sister Claire specializes in easter eggs. Its her favorite thing, I think.
Robinofleylines: I’ve found open-ended, personal questions can also be a good way of connecting too. You have to be careful not to get TOO personal or TOO dark, however. Lighter topics are a better bet, and they create good feelings to associate with your work.
Savannah: My tips? 1. Respond to every comment you can. 2. Be involved in all major social media outlets (Even if you don’t have a personal profile you use) 3. Take time to converse at conventions with every reader who stops by. It can be difficult if your table is busy, but you can always invite them to stop by again, or wait for a moment. 4. Have at least one mirror on a comic community such as Smack Jeeves, you’ll reach an audience that might otherwise not have discovered you.
What does everyone else think about having a mirror site?
Mithandir: CtS simply wouldn’t work on a mirror since no standard sites have the features we’d need
Kneon: Mirror site — we tried SmackJeeves as an “ad” for the main site and got zilch traffic. Also, posting older pages on dA hasn’t done much for us either. So it’s not a priority for us, but your miles may vary.
Savannah: A mirror site is good, as long as you pick the right location. With Smackjeeves I can code it to contain the same layout, ads, and such that our main site does. If you switch between them, they are very much the same. I would not recommend a site like Drunk Duck, where you have no control over the ads, your display, or your top links site. Why send readers to a page where you can’t properly market to your audience?
JGray I tried a mirror site for a while. It ended up being useless. There’s no real need for it, so far.
T III: Instead of mirror sites I’ve been using fan pages on facebook and deviantart – they seem to work and they’re another way to reach out to readers and give them extra content.
Kneon: I’m all for community building, but given that we only have so much time to give to our comic, we want to build *our* community around the comic site itself rather than spread ourselves too thin. Again, your miles may vary. We have a healthy Facebook community too, who often comment on pages over there vs. our site. But you come to shadowbinders.com to read shadowbinders.
daveb: I post on FB and G+ just because that’s how some people prefer to track their comics, and it only takes a few seconds. Most of the action happens at the page, but anything that brings them in counts as a hit. Except for the RSS people I guess.
Savannah: When we update on SmackJeeves, just under 2000 unique viewers check the update. It’s not an audience I would want to exclude.
So is it something about the community of a mirror site that can make it worthwhile, more than the service itself?
JGray: My experience is with communities like Drunk Duck and Smackjeeves, you get out what you put in. Being an active member draws in audience better than being a good comic.
Savannah: Certainly; the community is always the most important part. If there was not a community interest in our comic there, there would be no sense in the mirror site. I look at it as another way for readers to bookmark and follow your comic.
As a fantasy comic, how do you pitch it to potential readers?
Kneon: I’d say our “pitch” is that we’re not hardcore fantasy or hardcore steampunk… it’s an adventure with fantasy and steampunk elements. Our tagline is “Steampunk, Fantasy, Magic and Mecha” — but I’m sure purists of any of those genres would argue that. Oh well.
JGray: I’m still figuring that part out. My comic has a unique style that doesn’t fit pigeonholes well.
Eren: I’d say, when coming up with your pitch, focus on the things you love about the story, and the things that make it unique from all the OTHER fantasy comics out there. The quick blurb we usually give people at conventions is “It’s the story of a young king, his doomed kingdom, and a plot for revenge 900 years in the making.” The ’900 years in the making’ part really seems to pique people’s interest, for whatever reason. Also, on of the characters I write is a very large, sentient, predatory beast.. who has ended up filling the role of party diplomat more often than not. So he ends up on a lot of our banners just because he’s visually striking and not really your typical fantasy party member… even though he hasn’t TECHNICALLY been introduced in the comic yet.
T III: Pitching it online is pretty much, advertising, talking in forums etc. and having fans pass links and info along. at events, as always having a quick 2 line description and handing someone a comic to read and then chatting with them seems to work. It’s a cliche but a lot of it boils down to being a likeable person and selling yourself as the creator as well as the comic.
Mithandir: CtS’s main ad has always been “The world is not in danger. The women are not scantily clad. Not all dragons are fearsome. And still we call it fantasy.”
Robinofleylines: I struggle to pitch my comic as a “fantasy” because I feel that people hear that word and associate it with elves, dwarves, dragons, and epic quests. My story only has one of those elements – a quest – but even that is a stretch. I’ve chosen instead to focus on the “instigating incident” – The death of the mother – rather than genre.
Mithandir: JK Rowling never considered Harry Potter fantasy .. labels are what you make of them
Kneon: Yeah, the enthusiasm for your work brings in readers. Eren and Chezhnian did well with this at AUSA. They were very enthused about their comic and it brought people to your table.
T III My pitch is normally focusing on the epic journey and the romance aspect of the story. If they show interest start talking about the cast and more about the world they live in. And of course hand them a comic.
JGray: Ads help. Posting on forums helps. Twitter helps. Word of mouth helps most. Most of the major bump ups I’ve heard of have come from a popular site mentioning a comic. Except Daveb, who has Harem to increase his numbers.
Mithandir: Targeted ads are the key. I know that if I advertise on the right sites, 10-15% of the people who click on the ad will read our entire archive.
T III what I find at events is – I’m dreadful at grabbing attention and getting people TO the table – but once they’re there, they always leave with something.
Savannah: I think pitching a long-form comic poses some challenges; as you’re asking them to invest in an epic story, with an epic length. I focus on expressing my own love and enthusiasm for the story, and try to give it a bit of mystery. To be honest, sometimes my readers will pitch the comic outside my table or in an e-mail, and I try to work some of their wording into my general pitch. It develops as it goes along. Your own pitch can be a bit biased by what you find interesting about your comic. Sometimes gathering points from a reader can give you more insight into what other view as the highlights to your work.